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	<title>Comments for The Planning Blog</title>
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		<title>Comment on Councillors believe they will be able to state voting intentions in advance by RichardW</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/23/councillors-believe-they-will-be-able-to-state-voting-intentions-in-advance/#comment-3801</link>
		<dc:creator>RichardW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 12:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3948#comment-3801</guid>
		<description>Back off my hols . . . 

I am a planner, not a politician, with several years experience handling major cases and dealing with members both inside and outside committee. I think where I&#039;m coming from is a wish to debunk some of the mythology that has grown up around planning.

Firstly, &quot;officer/planner&quot; and &quot;member/politician&quot; are just labels; ultimately we&#039;re all just people. Secondly, &quot;officer&quot; and &quot;member&quot; are just roles within a larger system. &quot;Officers make recommendations; members make decisions&quot;. Well actually, 90% of all planning decisions are delegated to officers (more if you count decisions on discharging conditions etc) and members, as individuals, make no decisions at all – rather you might say they present their individual “recommendation” to the committee by way of their vote. And any decision made by a Local Authority (delegated or committee) is not a final decisions as it can be challenged through appeal or the courts. So is a committee decision to refuse, knowing an appeal is likely, anything more than a “recommendation” to an Inspector?

“Why should any applicant or member of the public be expected to tolerate a system where the outcome is potentially determined by the political posturing of a number of ill-informed politicians?”

Now there’s the nub, what is the proper role for members in planning decisions? If it is to be purely rational and analytical and “a good members’ decision&quot; requires a thorough understanding of policies and guidance etc, this sounds to me like a “professional” task, and isn’t this best left to the professionals? But if their role is to be the voice of local communities, and to challenge the uncaring technocrats, then where is the harm in allowing them to give full voice to their principles and feelings at whatever point in the process they feel is most appropriate? 

And ultimately wouldn’t allowing members to speak out in advance be more “honest” than the current (hopefully outgoing) system which police’s members’ public behaviour but actually does nothing whatsoever to stop them predetermining cases (in their own minds)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back off my hols . . . </p>
<p>I am a planner, not a politician, with several years experience handling major cases and dealing with members both inside and outside committee. I think where I&#8217;m coming from is a wish to debunk some of the mythology that has grown up around planning.</p>
<p>Firstly, &#8220;officer/planner&#8221; and &#8220;member/politician&#8221; are just labels; ultimately we&#8217;re all just people. Secondly, &#8220;officer&#8221; and &#8220;member&#8221; are just roles within a larger system. &#8220;Officers make recommendations; members make decisions&#8221;. Well actually, 90% of all planning decisions are delegated to officers (more if you count decisions on discharging conditions etc) and members, as individuals, make no decisions at all – rather you might say they present their individual “recommendation” to the committee by way of their vote. And any decision made by a Local Authority (delegated or committee) is not a final decisions as it can be challenged through appeal or the courts. So is a committee decision to refuse, knowing an appeal is likely, anything more than a “recommendation” to an Inspector?</p>
<p>“Why should any applicant or member of the public be expected to tolerate a system where the outcome is potentially determined by the political posturing of a number of ill-informed politicians?”</p>
<p>Now there’s the nub, what is the proper role for members in planning decisions? If it is to be purely rational and analytical and “a good members’ decision&#8221; requires a thorough understanding of policies and guidance etc, this sounds to me like a “professional” task, and isn’t this best left to the professionals? But if their role is to be the voice of local communities, and to challenge the uncaring technocrats, then where is the harm in allowing them to give full voice to their principles and feelings at whatever point in the process they feel is most appropriate? </p>
<p>And ultimately wouldn’t allowing members to speak out in advance be more “honest” than the current (hopefully outgoing) system which police’s members’ public behaviour but actually does nothing whatsoever to stop them predetermining cases (in their own minds)?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Everyone loves a planner by Trust &#38; Planning &#171; Word on the Street</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/22/everyone-loves-a-planner/#comment-3780</link>
		<dc:creator>Trust &#38; Planning &#171; Word on the Street</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 08:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3933#comment-3780</guid>
		<description>[...] Public opinion of Planners also seems to be on the move.  Philippa Smith (in Planning of course) sent me this link to an article entitled Everyone Loves a Planner.  [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Public opinion of Planners also seems to be on the move.  Philippa Smith (in Planning of course) sent me this link to an article entitled Everyone Loves a Planner.  [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mixed messages on Labour housing policy by Tom</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/27/mixed-messages-on-labour-housing-policy/#comment-3802</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3967#comment-3802</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do we treat the person who contributes to their community the same as the person who doesn’t&quot;

Who the hell does Ed think he is to make the decision on who is contributing. Is the person who works full time and pays tax, but has no active part in the community contributing? Or is the unemployed person surviving on benefits, and yet very active in community groups and organisations contributing?
As ever, a totally ridiculous policy that just panders to the media immage they want to portray.

We need more Council housing. Right to buy was a disaster, we need for a new era of publically provided housing as the private sector has spectacularly failed to provide the types and numbers of housing we need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do we treat the person who contributes to their community the same as the person who doesn’t&#8221;</p>
<p>Who the hell does Ed think he is to make the decision on who is contributing. Is the person who works full time and pays tax, but has no active part in the community contributing? Or is the unemployed person surviving on benefits, and yet very active in community groups and organisations contributing?<br />
As ever, a totally ridiculous policy that just panders to the media immage they want to portray.</p>
<p>We need more Council housing. Right to buy was a disaster, we need for a new era of publically provided housing as the private sector has spectacularly failed to provide the types and numbers of housing we need.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Everyone loves a planner by Necropolis</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/22/everyone-loves-a-planner/#comment-3779</link>
		<dc:creator>Necropolis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 19:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3933#comment-3779</guid>
		<description>Its good to hear, finally. Planning has, to be frank, awful PR and we all know it. Quotes and stories like this are some small relief. 

Thing is, we need to get smarter in our game and use this. Re-quote it a bit. Have the President throw it back at Pickles next time he insults us again.

Problem is... Will we? Or will we just sit quietly again when Ministers fancy giving us another kick?

I know where my embittered and cynical money will be...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its good to hear, finally. Planning has, to be frank, awful PR and we all know it. Quotes and stories like this are some small relief. </p>
<p>Thing is, we need to get smarter in our game and use this. Re-quote it a bit. Have the President throw it back at Pickles next time he insults us again.</p>
<p>Problem is&#8230; Will we? Or will we just sit quietly again when Ministers fancy giving us another kick?</p>
<p>I know where my embittered and cynical money will be&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Councillors believe they will be able to state voting intentions in advance by Tom</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/23/councillors-believe-they-will-be-able-to-state-voting-intentions-in-advance/#comment-3794</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 07:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3948#comment-3794</guid>
		<description>&quot;Consider this, why is it OK for a planning officer to reach a view BEFORE hearing the debate at Committee, but it’s not OK for a Councillor to do the same?&quot;

Because the officer is not the decision maker. They are making a recommendation,and should be writing a report which fairly (as far as possible) sets out the cases for and against a development and then offering their advice.

The Councillors are entitled to follow that advice or not. So long as they give their reasons for doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Consider this, why is it OK for a planning officer to reach a view BEFORE hearing the debate at Committee, but it’s not OK for a Councillor to do the same?&#8221;</p>
<p>Because the officer is not the decision maker. They are making a recommendation,and should be writing a report which fairly (as far as possible) sets out the cases for and against a development and then offering their advice.</p>
<p>The Councillors are entitled to follow that advice or not. So long as they give their reasons for doing so.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Councillors believe they will be able to state voting intentions in advance by Paul Barkley</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/23/councillors-believe-they-will-be-able-to-state-voting-intentions-in-advance/#comment-3790</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Barkley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3948#comment-3790</guid>
		<description>A key difference between the officer role and the member role is that the former makes a recommendation; the latter makes the decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A key difference between the officer role and the member role is that the former makes a recommendation; the latter makes the decision.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Councillors believe they will be able to state voting intentions in advance by Roger</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/23/councillors-believe-they-will-be-able-to-state-voting-intentions-in-advance/#comment-3789</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3948#comment-3789</guid>
		<description>RichardW, I am currently unable to workout where your comments are coming from, but do not get the feeling that you have experience as a member of a planning committee.  This is mainly based on your somewhat bizarre comment, &#039;why is okay for an officer to make up his mind before the committee debate, but not a member&#039;.
The officer who wrote the report, who may not be the one presenting on some occasions, will have studied all aspects of the proposal and will also have a sound knowledge of both the current planning guidance and any local policies that exist, all of which, even the most committed members are extremely unlikely to have.  It is a complete nonsense to suggest that members are comparable to officers.
Why should any applicant or member of the public be expected to tolerate a system where the outcome is potentially determined by the political posturing of a number of ill-informed politicians?  If that is what some members want to do then fine, let them do all the grandstanding they want, just don&#039;t allow them to be involved in the final decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RichardW, I am currently unable to workout where your comments are coming from, but do not get the feeling that you have experience as a member of a planning committee.  This is mainly based on your somewhat bizarre comment, &#8216;why is okay for an officer to make up his mind before the committee debate, but not a member&#8217;.<br />
The officer who wrote the report, who may not be the one presenting on some occasions, will have studied all aspects of the proposal and will also have a sound knowledge of both the current planning guidance and any local policies that exist, all of which, even the most committed members are extremely unlikely to have.  It is a complete nonsense to suggest that members are comparable to officers.<br />
Why should any applicant or member of the public be expected to tolerate a system where the outcome is potentially determined by the political posturing of a number of ill-informed politicians?  If that is what some members want to do then fine, let them do all the grandstanding they want, just don&#8217;t allow them to be involved in the final decision.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Councillors believe they will be able to state voting intentions in advance by RichardW</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/23/councillors-believe-they-will-be-able-to-state-voting-intentions-in-advance/#comment-3788</link>
		<dc:creator>RichardW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3948#comment-3788</guid>
		<description>Roger, you’re not wrong, but don’t you think that public faith in elected politicians is earned through acting with integrity. This requires  taking responsibility for your own actions. If politicians need regulation or policing to act with integrity then this is not good enough. Do you not think it’s akin to an old lag in prison claiming to be a reformed character because he hasn’t knocked over any banks whilst he was inside? It’s only when we are free to act as we choose that we reveal the depth of our personal integrity IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger, you’re not wrong, but don’t you think that public faith in elected politicians is earned through acting with integrity. This requires  taking responsibility for your own actions. If politicians need regulation or policing to act with integrity then this is not good enough. Do you not think it’s akin to an old lag in prison claiming to be a reformed character because he hasn’t knocked over any banks whilst he was inside? It’s only when we are free to act as we choose that we reveal the depth of our personal integrity IMHO.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Councillors believe they will be able to state voting intentions in advance by Roger</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/23/councillors-believe-they-will-be-able-to-state-voting-intentions-in-advance/#comment-3787</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3948#comment-3787</guid>
		<description>As an experienced planning committee chairman, I would be very uncomfortable chairing a committee where a number of members had already broadcast to the world how they intened to vote on an itme.  Not only would it undermine the whole process of presentation of the key facts followed by an informed debate and a final decision, it would also undermine what little faith the public has in the elected member involvement in the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an experienced planning committee chairman, I would be very uncomfortable chairing a committee where a number of members had already broadcast to the world how they intened to vote on an itme.  Not only would it undermine the whole process of presentation of the key facts followed by an informed debate and a final decision, it would also undermine what little faith the public has in the elected member involvement in the process.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Councillors believe they will be able to state voting intentions in advance by RichardW</title>
		<link>http://planningblog.planningresource.co.uk/2011/09/23/councillors-believe-they-will-be-able-to-state-voting-intentions-in-advance/#comment-3786</link>
		<dc:creator>RichardW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planningblog.wordpress.com/?p=3948#comment-3786</guid>
		<description>OK I can see I’m going to be something of a devil’s advocate here . . . 

What I meant was that there is a difference between forming a view on the probability of events occurring as described by a prosecutor based on conflicting witness statements, oral testimony, and forensic evidence on DNA matching  - which clearly requires all of the &quot;evidence&quot; to be presented first AND on the other hand forming a view on whether a housing proposal displays adequate design quality, or whether the need for housing is sufficient to set aside other shortcomings. Neighbour representations (this is ugly) are NOT the same as witness testimony (I saw him do it) and my officer views (this is ugly) are NOT the same as forensic evidence (there is a DNA match). This is why I don’t believe it is a good analogy.

And if by my saying that a councillor may have the facts before a meeting you include in the meaning of “facts” third party and expert opinion – I never meant to include these – these are not facts. Which is actually the same point as above – witness testimony is presented as fact and whether or not it is also “true” is a different matter. Expert or lay opinion is not true/untrue and hence not factual. Although it may include facts, expert or lay opinion is ultimately just another judgement on the significance of those facts. “The house is 8 metres high” is a fact – “the 8 metre high house is too tall in its context” is opinion.

Consider this, why is it OK for a planning officer to reach a view BEFORE hearing the debate at Committee, but it’s not OK for a Councillor to do the same?

The duty on the decision maker (for the moment at least) is to have regard to the development plan and other material considerations etc. I think a Committee member would only breach this duty IF they stubbornly maintained a prior position in spite of material considerations BUT the fault is in refusing to consider the issues when they vote, NOT in forming or expressing a prior position. The stating of a prior position does not breach this duty neither does deciding how to vote. The only thing that breaches this duty is voting without considering all material considerations.

Everything else is risk management with a view to what might go wrong (but might not) and /or playing your cards close to your chest in order to avoid embarrassment and U Turns. And I think that member’s should be trusted to be adult about this. And I actually mean that. After all if officers can’t trust members, why should members trust officers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK I can see I’m going to be something of a devil’s advocate here . . . </p>
<p>What I meant was that there is a difference between forming a view on the probability of events occurring as described by a prosecutor based on conflicting witness statements, oral testimony, and forensic evidence on DNA matching  &#8211; which clearly requires all of the &#8220;evidence&#8221; to be presented first AND on the other hand forming a view on whether a housing proposal displays adequate design quality, or whether the need for housing is sufficient to set aside other shortcomings. Neighbour representations (this is ugly) are NOT the same as witness testimony (I saw him do it) and my officer views (this is ugly) are NOT the same as forensic evidence (there is a DNA match). This is why I don’t believe it is a good analogy.</p>
<p>And if by my saying that a councillor may have the facts before a meeting you include in the meaning of “facts” third party and expert opinion – I never meant to include these – these are not facts. Which is actually the same point as above – witness testimony is presented as fact and whether or not it is also “true” is a different matter. Expert or lay opinion is not true/untrue and hence not factual. Although it may include facts, expert or lay opinion is ultimately just another judgement on the significance of those facts. “The house is 8 metres high” is a fact – “the 8 metre high house is too tall in its context” is opinion.</p>
<p>Consider this, why is it OK for a planning officer to reach a view BEFORE hearing the debate at Committee, but it’s not OK for a Councillor to do the same?</p>
<p>The duty on the decision maker (for the moment at least) is to have regard to the development plan and other material considerations etc. I think a Committee member would only breach this duty IF they stubbornly maintained a prior position in spite of material considerations BUT the fault is in refusing to consider the issues when they vote, NOT in forming or expressing a prior position. The stating of a prior position does not breach this duty neither does deciding how to vote. The only thing that breaches this duty is voting without considering all material considerations.</p>
<p>Everything else is risk management with a view to what might go wrong (but might not) and /or playing your cards close to your chest in order to avoid embarrassment and U Turns. And I think that member’s should be trusted to be adult about this. And I actually mean that. After all if officers can’t trust members, why should members trust officers?</p>
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